S9E2 – How Do ESTJs Compare To ISTJs?

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Transcript:

Chase: 00:04 Hey, it’s CS Joseph with CSJoseph.life, back again with another lecture. I know that we started the social compatibility series but they take a lot out of me and I have a lot of user requested videos from our subscribers, so I am going to continue to be doing in between and the compatibility lectures. I’m going to be doing type comparison lectures as well because I continue to be bombarded daily with questions about, “What’s this type compared to this type?” and, “They’re very similar. I’m trying to figure out which type I am, and if you could do a video on that it would save me a bunch of time and you’d just really helped me out.” Yes, I’m hearing your pleas. Yes, I’m going to do them. I’m going to do all of them. I don’t care if it takes a thousand lectures. We’re going to get through all of them. You know, this is, [this is] this is Jungian analytical psychology 101 times 10, right? To the point we’re at the 1,000 level, you know what I mean? We’re going to get there. All of them will be done. We’ll figure it out.

Chase: 01:08 Also I have to mention, do not forget… the email list. I know, I’m not trying to be like, “Ooh, get on my email list so I can send you news letters and stuff so I could like market to you, and give you annoying advertisements, and take over your email.” No, I’m not going to do that. No, no, no. I’m telling you because I’m going to be filming an additional lecture series. It’s only made available to those who are on the email list, right, so sign up. Go to CSJoseph.life, front page, put in your email. That’ll get you in, and then you will receive the videos for that. The videos will be contained in a hidden playlist so that as long as you subscribe to the email list. I’ll give out the playlist link every now and then, but once they’re subscribed [that] you can, you’ll be getting the videos individually and then a little bit over there.

Chase: 02:02 These will not be available on the podcast, just so you know. They will not be available on the podcast. I may make them available as a season on the podcast in the future, just not sure. And here’s what the subject matter is in case you’re wondering, “Okay, well what is it?” We did the cognitive transitions of video and we used the ESTP as the example. I’m going to be doing cognitive transitions for every single one of the 16 types, and then it’s going to be the first lecture series that will be made available privately through the email list. So if you want to be able to see the cognitive transitions series you got to get on the email list, and that’s how you’re gonna get access to those, and I’m hoping to get… hoping to get… Four? Two to four of those out a month for that lecture series, or you just might see randomly six of them in a random weekend because I got a hair up my ass.

Chase: 02:53 You never know. So anyway, with that in mind, let’s dive into tonight’s material which is dinging sounds in the background. No, no, that’s not, that’s nothing. Anyway, ISTJs versus ESTJs compared. Okay. Yeah, they’re both STJs. Fair enough. One is direct initiating control. That’s the ESTJ. One is direct responding movement. That is the ISTJ. So they’re both direct, but one of ’em is control, one of them’s movement. They’re both traditionalist, past focused, duty based, protectors and… about what they should do. They do not know what they want to do or care what they want to do depending on the perspective, but we’re just going to do a deep dive right in for you. So here we go. Enter the ESTJ, and so Hero rationale. Parent is duty, past, the past, long term memory, short term memory being down here with the critic which is physics. A metaphysical awareness with the child which gives you, you know, the INFP subconscious with the Fi morals inferior because they’re very philosophy… philosophy focused with the INFPs is very important, and because there’s a little bit different in the ISTJ for their subconscious.

Chase: 04:16 And then obviously the ISTP shadow with Ti logic, Se physics, Ni will power, Fe ethics, etc. Yeah, the ESTJ, like, does not give a damn about how you feel, I’m sorry, nor they ever will. They’re just going to walk by, they’re going to take a grenade, pull the pin, throw it in the room, shut the door and leave. Boom. That’s just what they do. They just walk by, throw out a zinger, and just keep on walking as if nothing happened with a smile on their face because that’s what ESTJs do. ISTJ is a little bit different. ISTJs, they actually are trying, they’re literally trying to figure out how you feel, but as hard as they try they have no fricking clue. It’s, it’s like a black hole, you know? [that] So they end up becoming even more socially awkward because, you know, they have those social faux pas constantly.

Chase: 05:04 It’s like, “I have no idea how you feel so, you know, I’m trying to figure it out,” right? So, you know, they’re kind of like those people that will follow you into the restroom, and then while you’re taking a crap on the toilet in the restroom they’re having a conversation with you in the men’s restroom, or the women’s restroom, or whatever, even though you’re busy taking a crap. Yeah. Well ISTJs do that, but… ESTJs. No. They’re not even going to bother doing that because they just don’t really care how you feel that much, and you know what, they’re just probably going to wait till you’re done, or not even care. They’re just going to move on to something else that’s in their priority level because it’s just not relevant to them at that point in time because, again, they don’t care. So what is the main difference?

Chase: 05:40 So, ESTJs, they really value rationale and process. It’s all about being processed. They’re, they’re very leadership oriented because they’re direct initiative control so they’re focused on being in charge whereas ISTJs don’t actually really engage with people from being in charge. Although their ESTP shadow makes them desire to at least be in charge sometimes. Especially when they’re feeling like they’re in a room full of stupid people, and it’s like, “Crap. I probably should take charge,” and then they actually try to, which ends up alienating people because they’re trying to make everyone do more work with all these extra processes; and all the extra policies that they have to follow; and it’s just really super annoying; and it’s just not going to work. Whereas the ESTJ is like, “Yeah, process and policy is great, but if it still gets in the way of me doing my job I’m not gonna be able to do it.”

Chase: 06:28 Why? Well, because the ESTJ likes to chart the course with their ISTP see-it-through shadow because that shadow is like, “Yeah, I need to get some work done so let me get some work done. Oh, you’re trying to enforce some policies on me? Yeah, no, I’m not interested in that. We’re not even going to go there,” and that can be a problem. So just be aware of that. Also it’s… it is kind of very mechanical. ESTJs really like going skydiving, or competing in Olympic sports a lot more so they can be very driven in that way, and a lot of that comes from their Se critic. However the ISTJ… they can do that, but, I mean, for some reason in our First World society they just get so lazy with their Si hero, their Fi child, that they’re not really as able or as motivated to do those physical feats.

Chase: 07:23 That’s not to say that ISTJs can’t. Some of them do, but it’s just, like, not as high a priority, you know, especially, like, going to the gym and whatnot. ESTJs super prioritize going to the gym and having a low body fat, ISTJs not so much. Although it can be a priority for some of them, not really that much, and because they’re both high Si users these two types are very prevalent within military organizations. All about duty, honor, big in the military. Also firemen, police, ambulance, first responders, coast guard, et cetera, rescue operators. These two types are heavily involved in that except the ESTJ takes it more of a leadership role whereas the ISTJ’s more of an execution role. They walk around and keep track of all the data, all the right regulations, and handle it while they…. ESTJ is aware of the date and the regulations. It’s just not as important as actually engaging and actually getting something done in that regard from an in charge standpoint, you know.

Chase: 08:26 Leading people, giving orders, recommending. Whereas the ISTJ’s just going to, like, do the job, et cetera. So anyway, so, [cough], all about rational hero. The hero for the ISTJ is introverted sensing. They prioritize what they should do. They prioritize their own experience, how comfortable they are, more so than the ESTJ. The ESTJ is willing to put themselves into uncomfortable situations more often than the ISTJ, but the ISTJ can take a lot more hits than the ESTJ, definitely a lot more hits. They have a lot more endurance than the ESTJs, and they can… and even though even though] the ISTJ could be… You could say that they’re more sensitive than ESTJs, but that sensitivity just gives them the ability to endure more and… Whereas the ESTJ ends up having that reputation that will count a little bit more sensitive at least socially speaking, but it’s mostly because the ESTJ is walking around feeling like they’re a bad person compared to the ISTJ where they don’t have that problem because Fi child. They just really know how to properly value themselves when compared to Fi inferior over here on the ESTJ because ESTJ is like, “I’m afraid I’m a bad person.”

Chase: 09:37 Whereas ISTJ is like, “Well I know I’m a good person, so get over it. Like, let’s not even worry. I’m not even gonna worry about it.” However the ISTJ struggles with fear, and this in my opinion is why you will see ESTJs jumping out of airplanes more so than ISTJs because fear. Yeah, while the ESTJ [is] a fear of… has a fear that they may be a bad person, or they’re not good enough, the ISTJ is afraid of the ‘what if?’ “What if I die when I jump out of the airplane? What if [what if] we all die when we jump out of the airplane? What if this? What if that? What if this goes wrong? What if my parachute doesn’t work? What,” you know, and it’s this huge ‘what if?’ thing; and they end up becoming more afraid so they end up stuck in their comfort zone, which means they’re not able to engage, right? They are not able to get over that fear in that regard unless they aspire of course and go into their subconscious, their ENFP subconscious. Then definitely they could aspire in that way, and then as a result they could jump out of the airplane; but the more immature or less developed an ISTJ is they’re probably going to be too afraid to jump out the plane and be stuck in their comfort zone, because their comfort zone is technically larger because 100 frames a second versus 75 frames a second of awareness. If you have such a high comfort zone awareness you’re going to higher prioritize comfiness, and the ESTJ does not prioritize being comfy more so than the [er]…

Chase: 10:59 The ESTJ does not prioritized comfiness more than the ISTJ does. So be aware of that. One prefers comfort more than the other, one prefers processes and policy more than the other; but the other one is just kind of more of an enforcer of it where the other one’s more of like, okay, a delegator of it, because you know. Think of it like, like they both get involved in project management pretty hard, but this one does it like a leader of project managers whereas this is just, like, the basic project manager that… It’s not necessarily a leader even though they kind of want to be, but they don’t because when they do they become the ESTP shadow where they just alienates people. Yeah, that’s really going to work. Anyway, so we talked about Fi child. The child for the ESTJ is extraverted intuition. Extraverted intuition is important because to the ESTJ standpoint they’re all about giving what other people want.

Chase: 11:50 They really focus[ed] on what others want whereas the ISTJ is afraid of what other people want. They are afraid about what might happen or what their intentions are, but the ESTJ is, like, you know, willing to pull someone aside and be like, “Hey, I see what you’re doing over there, but you’re going to want this. I had a really good experience doing this one thing. I went to this amazing spa and had a great massage, and here’s her card and you will definitely want to have that experience because I had a great experience. You should go,” or I had an ESTJ coworker who would do the float tank therapy all the time. He’s always trying to get me to go with him because he’s like, “Dude, you want to do this. It is an amazing experience. I had a great experience,” and he would just tell me every facet about it with his Si parent. Then he was telling me with his Ne child that I want to do that. An ISTJ is never going to do that. An ISTJ is going to be like, “Yeah, I had a great experience,” and they’re just kind of keep it to themselves, but they’re not really… They’re kind of insecure about what other people want. They’re not necessarily there to get in the way of pushing other people’s wants as much unless they’re aspiring with their ENFP subconscious, but they’re kind of not really going to do that, right? So just be aware of that. We already talked about Fi inferior with being difficult to… or being afraid that they’re a bad person. We talked about Ne child, talked about Si parent, and talked about those here.

Chase: 13:05 So let’s, let’s talk about the subconscious. So the INFP subconscious. The ESTJ is very philosophical whereas the ENFP of the ISTJ is [is] more focused on belief. Beliefs and brand. This is typical of any ENFP, but [philosoph] philosophy is like, it’s like a personal belief and, you know, personal. {I’m going to put personal philosophy here}. Whereas belief, it’s like the philosophies of everyone else, so it’s, like, external. So it’s [it] belongs to other human beings, external beliefs, because ENFPs are so focused on the beliefs of others. So the ISTJ becomes this walking [out] Library of Alexandria specifically for anyone to go up to the ISTJ and ask them a query, or a question, or an inquiry of some kind; and the ISTJ will remember and provide the sources and the reference points specifically by memory so that person is able to change their beliefs about something that they’re thinking about, and then they could go off and do their own thing; and, you know, and there’s some kind of change there. Whereas the ESTJ does that a little bit different with their INFP side. The INFP side basically is focused about the personal philosophy. Their version of the Library of Alexandria is not so much publicly accessible. It’s for themselves to develop their own core personal philosophy, and whether or not they decide to teach it or not that’s really up to them. They can do that, but it’s more of a one on one [where it is] whereas a one to many relationship with the ISTJ’s ENFP subconscious. This is more of a one on one introverted situation when the ESTJ is trying to confer their personal philosophy to other people. That’s why ESTJ’s are so good going with… you know, with [with] ESTPs in that way because that INFJ really jives with that.

Chase: 14:59 Also with the ENFJ subconscious of the ISTP it also drives with that because that ENFJ subconscious takes on that personal philosophy, and it is able to execute it from an in charge standpoint because it’s like one in charge type going to behind the scenes giving to a chart-the-course see it through type who goes with their in charge type; and they’re able to carry on that personal philosophy and then execute it out for everyone else. Whereas this one’s just trying to change the beliefs of others so that other INFJ subconscious, for example, out there could receive that… could have their beliefs changed, and then they’re able to execute the new belief system, et cetera. It’s all about systems integration and how it flows, and that’s how their subconscious… Subconscious[e]? Subconscious[i]? {Whoa, I have no clue}. How those two subconscious areas of the mind kind of interact, and how they’re different from each other. So, the shadow. The ESTJ walks around worried that they are stupid. They walk around worried that they’re not intelligent. That’s why they’re constantly going to other people asking them, “Hey, what do you think about this?”

Chase: 16:12 So that they can verify what they know so they are not worried about what they know. Whereas the ISTJ is extraverted sensing. They are worried about the experience that they’re giving off to other people. They don’t want to look bad. ESTJs do not care about looking bad as much as ISTJs do because they are worried that they’ll give off, you know, a bad scent, or a bad look, or their shoe’s untied; and let me tell you the ESTJ takes that very seriously but the ISTJ is even more sensitive to that; and if you’re going to accuse a an ESTJ versus an ISTJ of looking ugly, the ISTJ, because there’s more awareness in extraverted sensing, the physical environment, the now, et cetera, physics, the present, the ISTJ will be more sensitive and they’d be more offended than the ESTJ. Whereas the ESTJ would look and be like, “Okay, yeah, he’s right. I’ll fix it,” or the ESTJ would be like, “No, he’s wrong,” and then throw him in the dumpster. Whereas the ISTJ will be like, “What is it? I mean he might be right,” because Ne gets involved. Inferior Ne is like, “Well, he might be right, and he says, he, he’s telling me right now he’s having a bad experience. He might be right. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know,” and these two just, like, start ganging up with each other, and then it just turns into, like, this huge crazy spin cycle and just goes down, you know. Whereas, you know, something similar happens to the ESTJ with their, you know, fifth and fourth function here because it’s like, “Oh crap, you know. I might be stupid, but if I’m stupid that might mean that I’m a bad person too,” and then they end up having like this emotional breakdown.

Chase: 17:50 Secretly, you can’t really tell it’s happening, but when they really just feel like… and then they kind of seem all depressed, and they’re like, What the heck happened man?” and it’s like, “Well I did this thing and I feel bad about it. I just don’t really know what to do. I tried to apologize, but they don’t want to talk to me. I mean, what do you recommend?” and then they’re looking, they’re like, “Okay, what do you think about it?” and then they’re just like, “Okay, what can you do for me? Of course the ISTP or the ESTP in that moment would give them some tips on how to handle it socially, and the ESTJ’s like, “Okay, fine,” and then they’re really committed to trying to give that person a good experience with their Se critic because they’re Se critic demands that the ESTJ provides the perfect experience even though Se child is kind of even… or Se inferior is even more… more focused on trying to be as absolutely perfect with the experience.

Chase: 18:35 More so Se inferior because it becomes an aspirational function, but the critic is the wise old man, it is the… or old woman. It is the the wise sage that knows all there is to know about its realm, and its realm is extroverted sensing for the ESTJ; and it holds such a high standard of excellence in terms of looking good, and sounding good, and coming off well, and giving that awesome first impression, wearing that tie and that suit, etc. That is where the ESTJ is to the point where they will come up to you and just start picking at you and everything, but of course, you know, ISTJs do that to you even more. I mean, I know an ISTJ woman that just will not allow anyone that she’s dating into her house because she’s concerned that it would upset the balance of the house, and she’s more content [to] going over to her… to their place, and their realm instead of allowing them to come into her house because she just can’t stand the fact that she’s afraid that they might destroy Se, you know. Again, these two functions together might destroy the balance of their home, and things would be out of place and it will be dirty.

Chase: 19:38 She’d have to clean it up because she doesn’t want to have to do that because ISTJs really take the physical environment of their homes very seriously. Everything has its place. Everything eventually has to be perfect. They are clean freaks. Everything has to be clean. Everything has to be respected. ESTJs, very similar and have similar standards, but they are not as sensitive to it, and after awhile they’ll just be not in the mood to handle it even when the ISTJ is not necessarily in the mood. They’ll get cranky, and then they’ll just do it because it will just bug them until it’s done, and then they’ll have to deal with it because they force themselves to do it. That’s introverted sensing when you force yourself because it’s what you should do because it’s what you were imagining your duty is, etc.

Chase: 20:18 So that is the fifth function. Logic versus physics. The Ti critic of ISTJs are excellent. Back to Library of Alexandria mode, they absolutely have to verify everything they know. If they are going to feel that something is true with their Fi Te right here, “I feel this thing is true.” Just because they feel it’s true they end up knowing that that doesn’t necessarily mean it makes it true so they have to verify it because Ti Fe is all about “what I believe.” It is not “what is true,” it’s what I believe.” It’s completely different. Ti Fe or Te Fi is all about “what I believe.” So he’s like, “Okay, great. I believe it, but hold on. I need to come down here and verify it’s actually true first,” and then they’ll do a lot of research, and get tons of reference points, a bunch of sources, etc. Citations and read all this research until they’re like, “Okay, yes, this Is actually true, so I feel good about having this belief.”

Chase: 21:22 This Is one belief, and then they just stack up a bunch of beliefs inside of them as a result of their Library of Alexandria because we have Si Te teaming up together to create that Library of Alexandria; and then the Fi of how they feel about those reference points; and then it’s sent down here to the critic to verify everything. And It’s creates this locking Library of Alexandria so they can pre-box beliefs and shoot It out with their extraverted intuition into their ENFP subconscious and where they are giving beliefs to other people and belief systems to other people, et cetera, and so that those people could execute new belief systems, you know. Where It’s different with the ESTJ, they just do it because they’re trying to develop their core personal philosophy for themselves.

Chase: 22:01 They’re not trying to create a set of beliefs, or a set of philosophies for others. That’s what the ISTJ does. So that is what Ti logic is. They are so critical over what’s true. If you say anything around them, if you posit anything around them they’re like, “Okay, well prove it to me. Cite your sources. Show it to me. Like, you expect me to believe this? I need to see your data.” They’re so into it. ESTJs will do that as well, but not as much as the ISTJs because ESTJs are a little bit more open minded with their Ne child. “Hey, that guy might be right, and I might be stupid and wrong, and I may actually… I’m afraid I’m a bad person so I’m going to give this guy his day in court, and listen to him out and hear him out.” Whereas the ISTJ is more closed minded, and they want to see data upfront before they make any decision.

Chase: 22:49 If you’re going to be selling to either one of these, be aware of that. Take advantage of the fact that the ESTJ, which usually they are in middle management, decision makers. The ESTJ is there specifically, you know. They have a more open mind and you can engage them in that way. If you’re going to be trying to sell to an ISTJ make sure you have your numbers and your data at the top before your presentation, whatever, before you even decide to engage them or even talk about the product. Because if they, if the numbers don’t match, they’ll be like, “Uh, no. Next,” and then you’re out, or the numbers work for them, they’re like, “Okay, yeah, now I hear what you have to say.” ISTJs are all about that.

Chase: 23:26 So let’s talk about the tricksters we are, we already talked about this, ethics. That was the bathroom… the bathroom example, and introverted intuition. So ESTJs, they try to want things. “Oh, I want to go do that,” but then they fail at wanting, and they end up almost always wanting the wrong thing. Which kind of makes ESTPs and ISTPs feel good around them because… they’re like, “I want the right things and you don’t even want it,” and then the ESTP who’s even afraid of wanting the wrong things still appreciates that the ESTJ wants things even worse than they do. So they’re like, “Oh, thank god, I thought I was bad, but that guy is like, whoa. [laughs] I’m just going to go get him out of the dumpster because for some reason he willed his way into the dumpster right now. Oh, he’s in the ditch. Here, let me go get the shovel. Oh, okay. You’re back up on your feet. Okay. Fantastic.” Yeah.

Chase: 24:16 ESTJs consistently get themselves in trouble with their introverted intuition trickster. Do not allow these people to buy a car alone. Okay. Yes. They can use their Si if they have experience buying cars, and they can use their Te to figure out the proper price and whether or not they feel good about it, but still they have some middle open mindedness because Ne child can be taken advantage of; and ESTJs, yeah, they have pretty good things that tool… mental tools to protect themselves, but ESFJ’s? [laughs] Yeah, never let an ESFJ go to a car lot by themselves, like, ever. No. Don’t even bother. It’s, it is a crapshoot. ISTJs, not so much because they have Ni demon. Good luck selling anything to the ISTJ because they’re always trying to use that ENFP to sell beliefs to others, and so the ISTJ already sees themselves as a very capable salesmen. So good luck trying to sell anything to an ISTJ, and if you’re in sales and you’re dealing with an ISTJ I am so, so sorry. If that’s the case bring in an ESTP for that sales situation. The ESTP will get them handled, and quite frankly an ESTP is really the only way to kind of win a sales deal to an ISTJ, just so you know. They’re, like, the only way to do it, and if not maybe an INFJ, but yeah. Seriously. ESTP. Go for it. So, and yeah, because Ni demon, like, it just doesn’t want to have anything to do with them because they’re very duty focus. They don’t have anything to do with Ni. Now when they start allowing themselves to want things, you know, because of INFJ, that’s usually because they’re trying to burn their life down at that point in time.

Chase: 25:52 You know, they’ll light themselves on fire. “Look, I burn so brightly. Care about me because I’m burning so brightly right now. I lit that… I lit myself on fire just for you,” and then no one answers the call, and then they just burn out and everything’s gone, you know. The [the] typical INFJ self-destruct, right? [cackle] Well, ISTJs do that too with their superego, and remember the superego exists… Yes, it could be used for great evil, and can destroy people’s lives, and can get them to be super depraved or corrupt, which can definitely exist because, you know, remember virtue and vice. You have corruption as the vice here, ENFP. Well, you have depravity as the vice here for example. It just, you know, a trivialness for this vice and the ESTP vice is nymphomania for example. So they got a lot of interesting vices that are going in their head. They got to keep track of, you know. Primary vices. We’re not even talking about secondaries, or tertiaries, or the fourth level because if you think about it there’s four cognitive functions in the head. There’s technically a virtual advice attached to each of them. We’ll do videos on that later if you know what I mean. It’ll be dope. Anyway, just be careful.

Chase: 26:59 The INFJ superego, it can light itself on fire. They… ISTJs, when they hit rock bottom they are willing to reset their life. That’s what the superego is for. It’ll destroy all of… It will destroy their reputation. It will destroy all their relationships with other people, it will burn the bridges with literally everyone, and they will uproot themselves and go elsewhere. Completely start anew while having nothing to do with anything in that previous life per se because it’s like, “Okay, you’re dead to me. I’ve moved on and cut you off,” and that’s… INFJ door slam on life basically, and they have a new life now. It’s to the point where they’re even willing to change their name in some [some] situations, but it’s usually already because of an ISTJ, or Si hero; and Fe demon, we already talked about the ESTJ. They just don’t really care about how anyone feels. So good luck trying to get them to care because they don’t. They only care about themselves with Fi morals. That doesn’t mean that they’re, they’re just… All it means is that they lack empathy. [they’re] These are trying to be empathic, but they’re very sympathetic; but the ESTJ is so focused on getting sympathy out of Fi they have no time or mental cycles to become empathic so do not expect empathy from either of these types. Especially ESTJ. If you are trying to get empathy out of an ESTJ they will immediately think that you are trying to manipulate them, and they will throw you into the dumpster. Be very careful when doing this.

Chase: 28:16 So, anyway, that completes the ESTJ versus the ISTJ. If you have any questions about this, please leave in the comments section, and I will answer your questions; and if you have any other video requests, lecture requests, by all means I’ll get to those as well. Please subscribe to the channel here on YouTube and on the podcast. That would be fantastic, and leave a like too while you’re at it, also pretty dope. I have four different lecture series or seasons for type comparisons. There’s going to be eight lectures per, so 16, or 32, of them total, [and I’ll be doing] and I will be doing them intermittently with the compatibility lecture series as well. So be aware of that, and don’t forget the email list so you can get access to the cognitive transitions… private lectures as well. So. Awesome. I got a lot more of these to go. So, I’ll see you guys tonight.

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