S7E15 – What Is The Virtue And Vice Of INTPs? Attentiveness Vs. Apathy

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Transcript:

Chase: 00:01 Hey guys, it’s CS Joseph with CSJoseph.life doing another episode on our series virtue and vice. We’ve got two more episodes left including this one, so we’re going to be taking it from the top with the INTP. Formative, responding, control, also intellectual temperament also known as the intuitive thinkers. The INTP, to be honest, I have been waiting a long time to do this virtue and vice in particular because I find the INTPs, one, to be extremely fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. I am very happy to have the opportunity to do this one. So, the INTP, the engineer type. What is their virtue and vice, and where does it come from?

Chase: 01:06 It kind of is a very interesting source. It actually, I mean, well, most external people who are observing the INTP would say that the source of their virtue and vice actually comes from their trickster function which is extraverted sensing. That’s basically the weak point in which an INTP has to come to terms with the fact that they don’t exactly… They don’t exactly, are aware of what’s going on in the moment, right? This gives them the potential, for example, to, you know, drop things, or they’re just not aware of what other people are doing. It’s because they’re only really aware of what they themselves are doing, right, and it has certain limitations. It’s because their Si child is so focused and worried in what they’re doing they’re not aware of what others are doing, and Se trickster is usually the function that inhibits INPs, you know, with their… How should we say it? Fashion sense, right? So anyway most people would argue that the INTP virtue and vice comes from extraverted sensing trickster, and you know, I could see that. I’m okay with them saying that. So, but what exactly is their virtue and vice? Well, let me tell ya, their virtue is attentiveness and their vice is apathy. So what does this mean?

Chase: 02:45 Well, let’s talk about a famous INTP, John Nash, and there was a portrayal of John Nash by an actor by the name of Russell Crowe who did a film by the name of “A Beautiful Mind.” If you’re an INTP watching this I recommend you watch “A Beautiful Mind.” If you’re an ENTJ in a relationship with an INTP, or either one of those two types, or even considering having a relationship between one of those two types, I strongly recommend you watch “A Beautiful Mind,” because it is the best portrayal that I’ve seen in terms of… {Wow, the wind is crazy today. I like it}. It is the absolute best portrayal of INTP plus ENTJ relationships, with Russell Crowe’s character being the INTP of course, and the female lead being an ENTJ woman, right? So it just goes to show those relationship dynamics. So why is this relevant? Well, there’s a particular scene when the two characters are dating, and they go visit the art museum together at some kind of event; or at least it’s an art museum and there’s an event potentially for the university that Russell Crowe’s character, John Nash, is a student at, and there’s a lot of talking going on. There’s a lot of important people there. Everyone’s wearing a suit, including Russell Crowe’s character, John Nash, and he’s just so fascinated. His attentiveness is kicked in. He just so fascinated by the art, he’s taking a look at it. [laugh] From an outsider’s perspective it’s as if he’s completely ignoring his smoking hot date. Completely ignoring her, right? As if [as if] there’s nothing going on there, you know, as if he doesn’t even care. He looks like from a distance that he doesn’t care about her. No attention, no nothing.

Chase: 05:02 Well, it stands to reason that ENTJs, especially ENTJ women, need attention. Its because they have Si trickster. Si trickster is not really aware of what they are doing. They’re aware of other people are doing, and if they don’t have… If they don’t have the attention of somebody, if someone’s, like, not looking right at them they’re not going to say anything. They’re not going to communicate. It boggles their mind that they could communicate with somebody and that person’s not even facing them, right? They end up feeling disrespected. They end up feeling unloved as a result of that interaction, especially with a lover, right? Well, you know, John Nash in this particular moment within this film is not exactly aware of that dynamic, right? But he’s so attentive to the art, so completely attentive to what’s going on in this art museum and the art, and then she’s telling him something very important turn. It’s important to her at least, and he’s just focusing, you know, [our], you know, physically looking at the art in the art museum, right?

Chase: 06:11 Well, you can tell she’s pretty miffed by this and somewhat upset about it. I mean who could blame her, right? He’s ignoring her, right? Well, someone else in the party comes and gets his attention and takes him away from her for a moment, and he has to walk off and handle that situation, and then she feels alone and she feels lonely. Definitely not the ideal situation for their relationship, and one thing led to another and it led to some conflict for them in this relationship of theirs. But things eventually came to a head, came to a head. They had a come to Jesus moment where she basically explained to John Nash that she wasn’t cool with this anymore, and he basically explained some things as well. And in almost like a last ditch effort within this come to Jesus moment that these two had within their relationship, a last ditch effort, he repeats verbatim everything she said to him when they were at the art museum event, and she was shocked. She was flabbergasted. “Really? How do you know? How did you know that? You were listening all along,” and he even said… and looked at her right in the eye and said, “I listen to everything you say, and I don’t forget it.” I’m paraphrasing of course.

Chase: 07:53 That is the power of INTP attentiveness. When they’re not even looking at you, when it seems like they’re not even paying attention they are literally hanging off of every word. That attentiveness goes even further, especially from a technology standpoint. They’re so attentive with their research. They’re so into attentive with their Si child that they’re like these walking sponges. They can just absorb all of the information, absorb all of the data at everything they do. Constantly absorbing data. This allows the INTP to reach some semblance of mastery, especially in areas of technology, or quite frankly in any area of interest to the INTP. The INTP just becomes captivated by what they’re looking into, what they’re interested in. That can be a game. That could be a system, that can be a form of engineering, who knows? But whenever their Si child is like, “Ooh, this is cool,” they’re going to absorb it like a sponge, and none the least of which are their relationships. Are you in a relationship right now with an INTP? Do you feel like you’re being ignored? I guarantee you you’re not being ignored – just because they’re looking at you, or not looking at you, right? Just because they’re not looking at you doesn’t mean they’re not listening to you. Yeah, they’re watching television, and sitting down on the couch, and being comfy and resting and whatnot, and you’re trying to talk to them. Are they brushing you off the shoulder? Really? No. Actually they’re not. You know what?

Chase: 09:38 Not only are they so attentive and they’re going to remember what you say, five years from now they’re going to bring it up. Proving once again their loyalty to you because of how attentive they are. Such is the way of INTP attentiveness. That’s how it works in relationships, and they take that attentiveness to everything they do in their job. They don’t waste time. If they’re spending time with you [they] it’s… because they want to. It’s because its their good pleasure to do so. It is because you give them a good experience, and they want to continue to have that experience. Potentially indefinitely, right? That is why they are attentive to you. Just because they don’t look like they’re attentive to you doesn’t mean they don’t care. Doesn’t mean they’re not listening. Allow them to be this way, respect them as such. You know… [spit] as an ENTP this virtue and vice as an NTP actually applies to me as well. It’s not a primary one. There are times that my NJ girlfriends would be like, “Well, you’re not looking at me so you’re not paying attention,” and it’s like, “No, that’s not true,” and then they get all indignant on me. Accusing me of not being attentive to them when in reality I am, right? It’s just not my primary virtue and vice, it’s like a secondary or tertiary, but I completely understand. I get it with INTPs, I know. I know what it’s like for you gentlemen or women, right? I know what it’s like to be accused to your face of being someone so indifferent, right?

Chase: 11:32 Oh, but wait, let’s talk about your vice. Apathy. If INTPs are in an abusive relationship, or if they are uncomfortable in any situation, they’re just going to turn their apathy on and they can tune anything out. They can even tune out being beaten. In a lot of cases they can tune out that physical damage to their person. Gives them this super high, super mega high endurance. Endurance close to the endurance that ISFJs and ISTJs have with their Si heroes. It’s because SI child is strong, Si child can take the hits, right, but they use it with apathy. Let me tell you something about the vice apathy. Apathy don’t change shit. Apathy doesn’t help. Yeah, I get INTPs can be indifferent to, like, literally anything and everything, and it is the most annoying thing. Super mega annoying. [laugh] They’re like, “Oh, I’m just going to outlast you until you’ve had your, your rage out, and then when you’re done raging we can have a conversation again, right?” Yeah, no, that’s not how it works, but, you know, the INTPs, especially the immature INTPs, think that if they’re just indifferent, if they just ignore you, you will go away eventually, you know. Super… attentive, right? Super apathetic.

Chase: 13:24 Sometimes they can be selfish with their apathy. Where you’re really trying to do something nice for them, but because of something you did earlier that day, or something from the previous state of the previous week that they just haven’t let go yet. [They’re still] you’re still on ignore mode with them. You’re still in apathy mode. You’re still, you know, they’re still indifferent to you. It’s like they just don’t care. They don’t care what you have to say. They don’t care anything until that previous issue was resolved, right? I’ve seen INTPs being apathetic to their own children. I’ve seen INTPs being apathetic to their mothers, to their wives, to their husbands. I have seen female INTPs be insanely apathetic. Apathetic and indifferent to the point where they will stop taking care of themselves. [That] they will deprioritize beauty because to their point of view it’s like, “Well, why should I be beautiful if everyone’s just going to continue to be shit to me?” You know what I mean? So why bother? See INTPs have this thing, same way ENTPs were… ENTPs get ‘Why Bother?’ Syndrome, right? And that usually comes from the, “If I’m going to do the time, I may as well do the crime, right?” So ‘Why Bother?’ Syndrome leads to apathy. Leads to the indifference where the people closest to them in their lives, they are completely indifferent to; and then all of a sudden they start being accused of being uncaring and unsupportive for their families, right? Which continues to be a problem on a daily basis for them for a long time until that issue is resolved. [If there] There is an old saying ‘never let any stone go unturned,’ right? Well, that saying really applies to INTPs because [if you] they will take things. They will let the sun go down and they will stretch things out. Days, weeks, months, years.

Chase: 15:50 You have to make sure you address everything with the INTP, or else they won’t be indifferent to you or to those that they love the most because it’s like, “If I’m going to do the time, I may as well do the crime. Why bother? Why bother being attentive anymore? It didn’t do me any good then. So I’m just going to care about what I care about. I’m just going to care about what I think. I don’t care what you think, and, you know, I was taking care of you. I was being supportive of you. I was making you feel good about yourself, but obviously you don’t care. You’re not giving me the recognition I deserve.” This is especially common. This is especially common among INTP males who are at home taking care of the kids while their INJ wife is working, right, is the breadwinner, right? And then they’re also doing some work on some project at home, right, [and] and that’s also bringing in money. It’s actually bringing in the same amount of money as the INJ on top of the fact that they’re handling the children and cooking everything. INTPs are very good cooks by the way, just because they know what they… they like to taste because they’re Si child so they’re able to be really good cooks in that regard, and they like to share that experience with others. “Ooh. Here’s the experience that I’m having. Do you want to have the experience too?” That’s the source of their amazing cooking capabilities, provided that they, you know, don’t have someone else cooking for them and giving them an amazing experience from the kitchen. So they end up doing it themselves and they can develop that skill very well.

Chase: 17:42 So in that model, you know, it’s like they’re working so hard but they get no recognition. So then they just basically tune out their INJ partner. Completely tune them out. Then comes the apathy. Then comes the indifference, and then it just becomes this endless cycle of bitterness in their lives, right? And that’s how they are from a relationship standpoint. Imagine how it would be in a work situation, right? “I’m going to do as little as possible because I don’t respect my boss. I’m not even going to pay attention to him. He’s going to tell me to do things, and tell me his expectations. Am I going to do any of them? Nope. Why? Well, I’m the INTP, especially, you know, I’m so good at what I do that I’m irreplaceable, which basically means I can just ignore what he says and do what I want anyway. Which will end up being, which will end up making me right. Which I’ll be right in the end anyway, so why bother? Why bother, bother listening to my boss? Because I’m going to be right in the end, so I just do what I want to do. Screw him.” Such is the way of the INTP apathy. Apathy continues to be a problem for them in this way. So what do you do when you’re in a relationship with an INTP and they’re apathetic, and you want to get them into their… you want to get them to pay attention to you, right? There’s a lot of things you can do.

Chase: 19:19 First [first] step, always ask them what they think. Always give their Ti hero its day in court, and unless you have facts, reference points, sources, source material, right? Research to back up why you disagree with the INTP, you’re kind of better off accepting their thinking. If you disagree with their thinking, you better prove it to them right then and there in the moment because if you don’t, case closed. You missed your window of opportunity. Yeah, sure, you can bring it up again later, but that’ll just actually cause them to become even more indifferent. Ti hero is always going to argue, just like Ti parent is always going to argue if it disagrees with you so you need to accept that. So instead provide them with information. Provide them with source material, research that proves them wrong, and you know what? They’ll engage. They’ll pay attention to that research and then be like, “Oh yeah, this thing here? You see you’re still wrong,” or they’ll be like, “Oh yeah, you’re right,” and they’ll immediately change, and that’ll be part of their knowledge tower within, and they grew a little. Why? Because you had the humility, right, to provide them with that information. You had that humility to give them the research, to take the time to get the source material, to prove them wrong. Yes, you have to do this, they have Ti hero, come on. Another thing, always state what you want. That way nothing is left to interpretation with them. Always make your INTP comfortable, you know, if they’re men, especially if they don’t deserve it, right? It’s because men have this problem where it’s not good enough for a woman to say ‘I love you’ to a man. It’s never good enough because women have this problem where they can [love] any Joe Shmoe on the street, right?

Chase: 21:12 So it’s important for women to say, “I respect you. That’s way more valuable than a woman saying ‘I love you’ to a man, right? And it’s especially true with INTP males because after a while Si child is so used to being disrespected by everybody else the last place they need to be disrespected is the home. Make your INTP comfortable. That will also allow them – and respect their comfy time, right? Allow them to have that so they become even more attentive, right? Always state what you want. Don’t allow things to go to covert contracts. INTPs are all about ‘if you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours’ right? They’re all about the covert contracts, and it’s insanely manipulative. Do not let them do that. Always be like:

NJ Partner: 22:07 “Hey, here’s my expectations. What are your expectations?”

INTP: 22:10 “Well, I don’t know.”

NJ Partner: 22:12 “Well, I’m telling you my expectations, and this is what we’re going to do moving forward.”

Chase: 22:17 And then that’ll cause them to get engaged and forced them to be attentive because they’ll want to represent their side, right? It gets everything out in the open. It allows you to have a relationship where you can be like, “Well, you know, I’d like to get married, but I’m not going to get married until you drop another 50 pounds with me,” right? You know, where you’re both together taking control of your health, right, and it’s no longer a covert contract. Whereas if one starts going to the gym and then getting [getting] bitter that the other one in the relationship is not doing anything to better their health, that’s technically a covert contract. Whereas it should be stated:

NJ Partner: 22:57 “I’m going to the gym, I’m getting better. I expect you to get better too, and that’ll be one of the conditions of our relationship, right?” “I’m going to the gym, I’m getting better. I expect you to get better too, and that’ll be one of the conditions of our relationship, right?”

Chase: 23:06 “Oh no Mr. CS Joseph, you can’t do that. What about unconditional love?” Yeah, unconditional love exists. That’s for children, right, and for parents, right, but I’m sorry. In our First World society unconditional love has its limits within, you know, face-to-face relationships. Let’s be real. Like, I’m not trying to go outside reality here, you know. There is some level of unconditional love in relationships, face-to-face relationships, but it’s never the dominating factor because anyone in that face-to-face relationship is at risk of being taken advantage of, and INTPs are extremely aware of that, and they are usually treated like doormats and usually taken advantage of. So that’s why they live in covert contract mode, and that’s why it’s more important to make sure that you are communicating with them. To [have] to get you to make sure that there is no covert contract. Make them comfortable, right? State what you want. Stating what you want eliminates covert contracts.

Chase: 24:13 Another thing. Always say how you feel, and when you’re saying how you feel, how you feel about them, always give them recognition. Always thank them for their hard work and their support in your relationship or in your family, etc. It is critical to their mental state. It is critical to who they are, and it will encourage them to be further attentive to you instead of being indifferent to you. If you’re an INTP what do you do to stay in your virtue instead of being stuck in your vice? Well… be true to yourself. [always know] Always know what you expect for yourself. Always know the experience that you want out of relationships, the standards that you have. Make sure that you’re taking responsibility to meet your own needs. Make sure that you have personal standards put in place so that those personal standards are things that you hold yourself accountable to so that you can continue to meet your own needs because no one else is there to meet your needs. You have to, Si child. Get over yourself. You have to do it, and then also because you have personal standards you can start developing personal boundaries which is what you hold others to outside of yourself.

Chase: 25:32 Standards that you hold others to. Those are boundaries so that other people can’t interfere with you taking responsibility for meeting your own needs. If it is a need of yours to have a certain amount of couch time on certain days after you’ve worked really hard make it known. Set that as a personal boundary, and have consequences if that boundary is broken. Did you know that men seldom enforce personal boundaries? Oh wait, women, seldom… [reinforce] enforce personal boundaries. It is a problem in our First World society. Everyone has this problem… and then after all those things are done you can start to allow yourself to want things, and I get that you’re so critical about what you want. Hey, don’t really let yourself want things. That’s okay, but that’s what, but make sure you have done your duty. Make sure you’ve done your due diligence and you have completed all of the other items ahead of time: needs, standards, boundaries, and then you can start to have personal goals for yourself ,and those goals are to be respected not only by you but by others, right? Now, how to stay attentive.

Chase: 28:09 If you’re with somebody, if you’re in a relationship with somebody that allows you; that doesn’t break your boundaries; that helps you reinforce your standards; and that never interferes with your ability to meet your own needs, that’s someone to pay attention to, that’s someone to give you attention. That’s how you stay attentive. Someone who loves you, someone who respects you in this way. It all dials back to self-respect, and anyone that respects you because you have self-respect; and protects your self-respect; and values your self-respect, pay attention to them. Be indifferent to the rest. If you’re in a relationship with somebody… [stop] that does that, stop having that relationship. If they do not do that for you stop that relationship. I don’t care if you have children. Wake up. Those children will be damaged if you stay in that relationship, if you stay in that marriage. Divorce. Get a divorce. It’s more important for your children to respect you when they come of age than to have, “Oh, a good childhood.” Remember adulthood is way more important than childhood. Whoever says otherwise, they’re not really wise. [It’s more] it is super important to me that I respect my son and my daughter when they come of age, but it is even more important to me that they respect me.

Chase: 28:29 How can you have that if you’re being indifferent and apathetic to everybody? You can’t, and did you know that if you’re staying in these abusive relationships that you’re being indifferent and apathetic, not only to whoever you’re with but also to yourself? It’s because you lack self-respect. Move on. It’s your duty to do so. It is what you should do since you’re not motivated [but] by what you want. Well, in that case let me tell you what your duty is. Such is the way of the virtue and vice of the INTP. Attentiveness, be attentive to one’s self and be attentive to others, versus apathy. Indifference. You can be indifferent to yourself inasmuch as you can be indifferent to others. Self-respect goes a long way, INTPs. We need you to continue to make amazing systems, and build a better world for us, and to engineer solutions that make sense. We need you to continue to be some of the more brilliant people in the room, the brilliant people that walk the earth to make those amazing discoveries and bring our race to the next level, especially technologically. We’re going to need it, especially this century now more than ever, and you know that’s true, especially with what’s coming.

Chase: 29:54 Anyway, that does it for this episode. If you found this lecture educational, helpful, insightful, please subscribe to the channel here on YouTube and on the podcast, that’d be great. Also leave a like. If you have any comments, questions about INTPs, and their virtue and vice please leave it in the comment section, and I’ll do my best to answer your questions. The next lecture in this series is going to be the INFP, their virtue and vice, and then the next series we’re going to be doing is a launch into compatibility. And I will be doing more type comparison videos as well as we prepare for the csjoseph.life website launch, which I believe is Sunday the 27th of this month. So I’ll give you guys more details about that as I find out. Awesome. Well, I’ll see you guys tonight.

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